January 21st question

Marie’s poems tend to focus on the desire of female character by men, such as in “Equitan” and “Le Fresnse” , rather than a woman being in love with a man. How does the man in a story “wanting” a woman and then pursuing her reflect Medieval ideals? How does the woman in “Equitan” challenge this trope?

8 thoughts on “January 21st question

  1. The romantic interactions depicted in the lais typically reflect the idea that women are something to be wanted; beautiful, otherworldly objects of desire. If they are not that, they are usually villains standing between the hero and his goal. The lady in Equitan initially serves as the object of the king’s desire; he is overwhelmed with thoughts of her, and cannot stop himself from pursuing her. The lady, however, is already the wife of the seneschal and challenges the king’s love. She says she is not wealthy enough to be his lover, and believes he would soon abandon her for someone much younger. Even after they have agreed to become lovers in secret, she still challenges him, requiring him to join her in a plot to kill the seneschal to prove his true love. Because of her plot, she is labeled as an evil woman who deserves her murder by the seneschal once the affair is discovered. However, I think is was the affair itself that led her to be labeled as a wicked, evil woman; because she was not a pure and gentle soul, she was the villain. Why is the king, who pursued her in spite of her marriage and convinced her to have an affair, not murdered? Why does he die purely by mistake?

  2. The Medieval period is known for its fascination with courtship and romance, but these chivalrous ideals are also affected by the heavily patriarchal society they lived in. In these stories, women are often made to be commodities through the lens of the men chasing after her in. She becomes something to be obtained rather than someone he’s fallen in love with for reasons besides her beauty or often her “kindness”. But, Medieval tropes fancify these situations through romance and chivalry and disguise the lack of depth women are actually given here. In Equitan, we know the king is obsessed with chivalry from the beginning. He falls for the seneschal’s wife so quickly it is pretty clear that, instead of him loving her for herself, it may just be his own love for courting women in action. He had hardly spoken to her before deciding he was so in love with her he couldn’t live without her being his. He even says to himself, “What am I worked up and worried about? I still don’t know, nor have I found out, whether she would take me as her lover” (105). Given that men are often the ones in control, the wife does challenge this in Equitan. She formulates a plan to kill her husband so her and the king can be together, but this does not align with Medieval ideals and she is unsurprisingly vilified and murdered.

  3. The way men in this era want women reflects both the intensity of chivalrous ideals and the roles women played. The intensity of the relationship between Equitan and the lady demonstrates that women were certainly wanted, and that their reciprocation made the experience of courtly love even more pleasant. Without the presence and reciprocal desire of a woman, the men would not be able to experience the excitement of love affairs. However, in general, the women were those sought after and fought over, rather than individuals who possessed free will and volition. The lady in “Equitan” challenges this troupe by being hesitant at first. She questions his motives and the longevity of his interest so much that Equitan “begged so many times for mercy” (p.109, l. 178) and compared himself to her servant. It is only after making Equitan prove his loyalty that the lady indulges in the love affair. In order for the love experience to be the same, what men desired, women needed to be interested as well. This is why Equitan was resigned to death if the lady didn’t return his love. While this is manipulative, it does suggest that both participants needed to desire the experience in order for the intensity and excitement to truly satisfy the want for courtly love.

  4. One of the main ideas that stuck out to me in Equitan was the King’s immediate love for the seneschal’s wife. Like Drew said above, he had really only heard of her so it seems as though it would be impossible for him to genuinely be in love with her. However, in class we discussed that one of the key models of love for Marie was love relating to the marvelous as it does in Celtic tradition. The King being so taken with her before truly even knowing her, to the point where he is on his death bed almost, definitely relates to the marvelous as it almost seems like it was a feeling that was just bestowed upon him. When I was reading, I saw the similar pattern that Eris did. Because the seneschal’s wife was having an adulterous affair, she was the villain despite not initiating the affair. The King gave her an ultimatum, so I feel that she really did not have much of a choice to say that she also loves him or else he would have died. But because she was adulterous and committed a sin, I think as readers we are meant to see her as the cause of the problems in the story. However, in reality, she was just an object of the King’s projection, which she had no control over.

  5. Typically throughout the lais, the romantic encounters are based on the idea that women are wanted more for their appearances, such as their physical beauty and sexual desire. On the other end of the spectrum, they are usually what’s standing in the way of a man and his goal/achievements. In Equitan he desires the love of the seneschal’s beautiful wife, but fears of pursuing an affair and being disloyal to him. He continues to pursue the affair anyway and ends up confessing his love to the lady. The lady argues, love must be based on equality and loyalty, and the difference in the position of their ranking would make it impossible. He promises her to treat her as if she was his lord, so she agrees and continues to pursue their secret affair. She plots to kill the seneschal and challenges Equitan to participate for her hand in marriage. Therefore, the wife is perceived as an evil character who wants to betray and murder her husband. Technically, she seems deserving of being killed by the seneschal, but I believe her actions are what labeled her as a villain. I think that the medieval ideas reflect that all sins have consequences and that many don’t get away with them.

  6. I was surprised within Equitan about the vivid description of the women, who is the seneschal’s wife. In the readings from the past week, it was explained that sex was not the first thing on medieval people’s mind, but rather finding their next meal. The story does go against the classic ideals of courtship in the era with the king starting an affair with someone below their social class. By the King bringing the wife into his social class, he ultimately dooms her.

  7. The romanticized depictions of courtly love have often clouded the view of reality, the Equitan and description of the events with the seneschal’s wife reminded me of the affairs of Henry II and Rosamund Clifford, the King and the daughter of a lesser noble. Simple because it is likely that Marie de France witnessed or heard rumors of said affair in her life just due to speculation of who she could be. Also because in the hierarchy of a medieval court and staff of a court a seneschal is the top position, there would be the same respect to him and his wife as any other lesser noble. It is because of it that I would say it does not challenge the trope at all. It is just as typical and expected within the courtly dynamics. The perpetrators of the wicked deeds are killed and it still blames it all on the woman.

  8. When I was reading “Equitan” the amount of details and descriptions drew me deep within the poem. I enjoyed the way this poem went against the normalized idea of courtship. The king in this poem had an affair with a lady that was seen as a lower social class.
    I don’t believe the trope was challenged at all. The reasoning being is the hierarchy of the medieval court gives respect to the king and wife even though she is of lower social class.

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